My friend, Erin, has written a post around a comment I left at her blog this afternoon. I’m taking the bait because it is a subject that much intrigues me—that of names (not again!) and titles and the ways in which our children address grown-ups.
Erin says:
“Generally, the world suffers from too little, not too much, civility. If I could go back and start over, I think I would teach my kids to refer to adults with their titles and surnames until invited to do otherwise, but I think it’s too late for me to learn. It seems a little bit silly to insist that the children call our close friends “Mr.” and Mrs.;” but then, as I look back, I remember that my mother taught me to call her close friends “Aunt So and So” — a term of endearment and respect (although it was a bit confusing, as I thought they were all really my aunts for an embarrassingly long time.)
Read the whole post here.
What do you think? We have always required our children to address adults—even our friends and close acquaintances—as “Mr.” or “Mrs.” When the children have an instructor who goes by his/her first name—say, the friendly young adults at swim camp—they call them “Miss Alison” (for example) or “Mr. Kyle.”
The only exception to this rule that I can think of is our babysitters, whom the children call by their first names.
It’s interesting, this new formality. My opinion is that many of us are reacting to the old informality—that is, to the casual attitude so prevalent among the iPod-enclosed, text-message-happy youth of today. We’re combating (we hope) the insolence and irreverence of a generation that thinks nothing of cursing loudly in public places or wearing their pants below their boxers.
Call us old-fashioned.
Oh, and on a side note, Erin’s kids are nothing if not little sweeties. They are cheerful, bright, and inquisitive—and I don’t fault them one whit for being confused by what to call me.
Why, just last week I was insisting on Maggie!
Ad Jesum per Mariam,
Wow, my friend Sarah and I were just talking about this today on the phone!!
I do NOT like it at all. I am not that formal. It’s hard to remember other people’s last names, (let alone their firsts)!! Isn’t it the first names that we name our children after? It does not seem natural to me, it does not feel natural.
I think as long as children are nice, polite and respectful to others, does it really, REALLY matter?
Now, priests, that is another story, I do believe in calling them by Fr Lastname because it desparately needs respect. (the priesthood)
Just my opinion. I DO try to teach the children to call the adults who use the MR or MRS titles to call them by that,(out of respect for their wishes) but I do notice that they actually don’t call them anything at all.
Great discussion post! 🙂
I meant: isn’t it Saints first names that we name our children after?
When the kids were really little, we didn’t think much of it, and didn’t even know our neighbors last names. But I had a really hard time several years later allowing my 5 year old to call my 50-something year old neighbor “Linda.” It’s not how I was raised, by golly.
So now I make it a point to ask for last names. In a pinch, I’ll let them say “Mr. Bob,” but I insist on a title of some kind.
However, I don’t often make my kids use a person’s rank as that title, unless the rank is “General” or “Sergeant Major” or the person is their father’s boss. Most co-workers and such are fine with “Mister.” Saves confusion when “Captain Smith” gets promoted, you know?
I, personally, would be taken aback if a child called me “Michelle.” “Miss Michelle” is fine, but there’s got to be something there. Teens are different, and I don’t care as much, but the 12 and under crowd shouldn’t be addressing adults by their first names alone. They wouldn’t do it at school to a teacher, would they?
We just joined a new parish, and the pastor met us and remembered our last name, but that was it. Goodness, I can’t expect him to meet all 8 of us and keep us straight right off the bat. But at least he could call us “Mr.” and “Mrs.” and even “Master” to my son. Convenient, huh?
I think formailty is making a comeback, and I’m all for it.
But that’s just me.
This brings to mind what Meg Ryan says in You’ve Got Mail: “Joe. Just call me Joe? As if you were one of those stupid 22 year-old girls with no last names. ‘Hi, I’m Kimberly.’ ‘Hi, I’m Janice.’ Don’t they know you’re supposed to have a last name? It’s like they’re an entire generation of cocktail waitresses.”
I tried having my kids use Mr and Mrs with the wrong person first. She was hurt and after appologies and explainations became Aunty. In gfact I’m closer to her than some real aunties.
That said as homeschooled kids my children needed some Mr and Mrs people because there wasn’t a school teacher.
Many kids in co-op though call me Mrs. B because I’ve known them since mom was pregnant, done their diapers etc.I’m not the average hired teacher.
The neighborhood annoying kids have learned my last name — and they know I mean business.
I like to err on the side of too formal. It’s easier to scale down if asked. So my children start off by calling adults “Mr” or “Mrs.”
I used to teach them Miss FirstName until one friend (older than me,but not as old as my mom) said she preferred to be called “Mrs. LastName.” She was very gracious and was a wonderfully nice person who loved my dc. But I was so embarrassed, my oldest only being 3 at the time – I felt young and inexperienced.
I’ve found it often depends on the dynamics of the people involved. As a scout leader, we’re informal and playful. The girls call me Miss Lorri. My dd calls my co-leader Miss Jenn at scouts, but Mrs G… when we see her elsewhere. Funny – she does this on her own.
Ah, we are Mrs. and Mr. – Coach or Miss in the case of younger athletic leaders. The question for me is – when does it stop? Do I, at age 31, continue to call my father’s peers Mr. and Mrs.? I can’t seem to make the switch to call them by their first names, as I’ve been used to using a formal title my whole life.
AND! Do I insist on being Mrs. **** to my friend’s children when their parents introduce me as Jennifer? So many questions. I expect an answer to each and every one. 🙂
I live in Texas. Until a child knows an adults name it is Ma’am and Sir. Mr. and Mrs. is used in the more formal relationships but families that are friends and neighbors are usually Miss Carol, Mr. Todd, Mr. Bob, Miss Adriana etc…. Although it isn’t uncommon for a woman to be Miss Carol and her husband to be Mr. Smith.
I am usually Miss Karen or Ma’am and occasionally Mrs. K.
I am fine with this for my children and when being addressed myself.
This is a good one. I think it all depends on the relationship with friends and family. I teach my children to use Mr. lastname and Mrs. lastname unless the adult requests to be called by their first name.
Teachers, Doctors, Priests, Presidents, Popes, grandparents, mothers and fathers etc…..should be addressed with a the proper name.
My opinion…(just my opinion) children should use Mr. lastname or Mrs. lastname out of respect. Peers should be able to use first names of course.
I grew up in a culture where someone who’s older than you even by a few minutes is called a formal name (like “older sister”) so it’s difficult for me to hear children call adults by anything less than Mr. or Mrs. So and So.
This is *very* culturally dependent.
A friend of mine who is from Minnesota and who moved a lot as a kid told me a story of being introduced to her new elementary school teacher in Texas. IIRC it went like this:
mom: Say hello to your new teacher.
girl (politely, she thought): Hello.
teacher (snapping): You mean hello MA’AM.
She’d forget, a lot, till she got used to it, and the grownups thought she was being insolent. Then she got used to it.
Later she moved back to Minnesota, and when she would say “Yes, Ma’am” the teachers thought she was making fun of them.
Holy crow!!!! Your post led me to put up a mutual post on my blog! check it out if ya get a chance…peace
There was a recent discussion of this on another Catholic Mom blog I read, Building Cathedrals.
http://buildingcathedrals.blogspot.com/
2008/07/miss-manners.html
I hope the link works. I commented there too.
We do teach our children to use Mr/Mrs for adults. It works pretty well for us — even if we sometimes have to translate for them — I mean if dh and I are speaking about “Jane” I can explain to the kids that this is “Mrs. Smith.”
It’s not perfect — there might be times that my kids are saying Mrs. and someone else’s kids are using first names. But we do think it is important to show respect to adults.
We had one dear friend who was “Uncle” to our kids until he died. But we limit honorary family titles
to a very few people we are very close to.
I was always taught to default to Mr. or Mrs. with adults. When I was 14 and we were moving into our house one of my dad’s new coworkers was helping us and said, “Hi, I’m Doug.” I blinked at him for a moment and then simply said, “Hi.” I don’t think I’ve had occasion to address him since but if I did I would probably call him Mr. M.
It depends on the situation, though. For instance, my boyfriend’s parents are addressed as Mr. and Mrs. S and referred to as either Mr. and Mrs. S or “Scott’s dad and mom”. My best friend’s parents I address as Dr. and Mrs. T but will often refer to as Mike and Teresa, especially if the person to whom I’m speaking used their first names. But I’ve known them a lot longer. Adults whom I know from youth group are first names, even though some of them are old enough to be my parents.
When I have kids I’ll probably teach them to call people Mr. and Mrs. unless asked otherwise.
My children address adults as Mr. or Mrs. and our very closest, lifelong friends are auntie and uncle. Just as my parents taught all their children to do. My concern comes with friends or accquaintances who introduce me to their children as Nikki. I am too embarrassed to ask to be referred to as Mrs., yet uncomfortable having a child or worse yet a pre-teen/teen call me by my first name. I believe we cross a very valuable, albeit, invisible line of respect when we allow our children to refer to adults or authority figures by their first names.
I’ve been teaching the kids for years to say Mr/Mrs Lastname. It is very difficult when the adult in question turns to the child and says “You can call me firstname”. I’m in my 40’s, and when I see my mother’s friends, I still refer to them as Mr/Mrs Lastname. It is so ingrained that I can’t NOT do it.
I agree with which Michelle's comparision–our children call their teachers "Mr." & "Ms." etc. and they should do the same with other adults.
No offense, sweet Jamie, but when it comes to titles I am that formal! In almost every other way I am informal, rest assured. (For example, I will go across the monkey bars with your son, no problem, but I still prefer to be called Mrs. B.)
It’s interesting to note the cultural differences. In a pinch, we will call an adult whose last name we don’t know by “Miss First Name.” I think the adult likes it, and they definitely understand what we are doing.
Ultimately it is up to the parent, of course. A caring, respectful parent is not going to raise uncaring, disrespectful children.
One last note: If an adult says “Call me ‘First Name'” it is our call on how to respond. In most situations I would not be comfortable with that.
Margaret, I agree. I’ve had a few cases when an adult told the kids to use first names, but I was politely able to mention that we prefer our kids to use Mr/Mrs for adults.
In some cases, people were pleasantly surprised (they are not used to formality) and I’ve never had anyone take offense.
I do understand some cases for variations (like teen swim or camp instructors). Some people with very difficult last names use the Mr/Mrs with a last name initial (Mrs. P).
It is highly cultural. My sister lives in the South and down there the Miss First Name is much more common.But so is Sir and Ma’am, so they are still being polite.
I’m with Jamie :). Although I was bought up in the 60s to call people Mr and Mrs X, or aunt and uncle for close friends and relatives, it is now so counter cultural here that it feels unnatural.
We had never thought about it before we had children, and started off by trying to be more formal, but the reactions we got were so negative that we switched to first names. Now Mr and Mrs just sounds odd to me, as I rarely hear it used in any context – teachers and dentists is about it. Miss or Mr First Name sounds very odd to English ears. The only exception is that dance teachers are called Miss First Name. Other than that I have only ever heard that style used by Americans. I think it does sound very nice and polite when used by Americans, but if British kids used it adults would probably think they were trying to be cheeky.
On the rare occasions we have been with people who prefer more formal address, like Jamie’s my children tend to avoid calling them anything. Maybe now they have been in school for a year they would do better with Mr and Mrs, but even at school they don’t seem to be able to unravel who is a Miss, a Mrs or a Ms. Lots of kids end up calling all woman teachers a kind of random “Miss” (without surname).
In my Methodist childhood I was brought up to call ministers Mr. Surname, but all the Catholic priests I have known call themselves Father First Name, and that is the title they expect both adults and children to use.
This is so interesting to me…
When I was growing up, my parents taught me to ALWAYS call an adult “Mr.” or “Mrs.” Lastname unless I was specifically told to do otherwise.
So for example, at the (very left-wing) church I grew up at, it was not uncommon for adults to tell me to call them by their first name. However, that gave rise to some interesting situations in which I could be talking to two adults, whom I knew more or less equally well, and calling one of them Mr. Jones and one of them Bill.
As I got older, I ended up working at a retail store with the father of one of my childhood friends. I did what I always do – default to the most formal, and called him Mr. Lastname. He told me, nicely, that I could use his first name. It was very weird. :-p
Re: the “Miss Firstname” thing…when I was about 20 or 21, my mother’s neighbor’s children were calling me Miss Firstname. I’m white; they’re black. I felt really uncomfortable, mainly because I’d never heard that done before and I felt like Miss Scarlett. :-p So after I told my mom how uncomfortable it made me, she mentioned it to her neighbor, who told her kids that for me they could just use my first name. 😉
However, I now am dear friends with a family whose kids alternate between calling me Miss Firstname and Aunty Firstname. Doesn’t bother me in the least. Though I confess it sounds weird to me for me to hear them calling my fiancé Mr. Firstname… 😉
You know, the whole reason for etiquette (which I define as arbitrary rules the following of which serves as a signifier for politeness and respect) is to give everybody a common, understood system so you *know* how you are *supposed* to speak and act with respect to different people.
When you don’t have that common system you get misunderstandings and miscommunications.
I think that the U.S. right now is transitioning from a more formal-sounding society to a less-formal-sounding society. It’s not that we’re going from more rules to fewer rules; the rules themselves are changing. Parts of the country operate more or less according to one set of rules; other parts operate according to another. Older people (mostly) still follow one set, younger people (mostly) another. I suspect there are ethnic/cultural/even political differences as well.
Makes it tough, because people from each group may be trying very hard to be polite and will come across as impolite or sarcastic to people from the other group, through no ill intention whatsoever.
I truly don’t think there is an inherent moral difference between more-formal-sounding and less-formal-sounding rule-sets. But I do think it’s important to HAVE RULES. Etiquette’s a good thing. And the more widely everybody “knows” the rules, the easier it is to navigate in a complex society. Conversely, if you expect formality, you need to exercise compassion and patience with people; if they seem to be rude or overly familiar, it may well be that they really don’t “know” the rules, or that they were raised with a complete set that’s very different from yours.
Assume positive intent.
When my children were younger we always started with “Say hello to Mrs. Smith”. As they got older and we made more couple/family friends, we relaxed the standard a bit. I’m actually more concerned about my childrens’ table manners than how they address adults at this point. It’s been years of admonishing them to chew with their mouths closed and I have two that I am at the end of my rope with. What do I do?
One other thing…once kids are teenagers they seem to drop the Miss and Mr. First Name and it is only Ma’am and Sir and Mr. and Mrs..
We are friends with a family with 5 children. 15,13,10,6 and 4. I am Mrs. K to the first 3 and Miss Karen to the bottom 2.
I call my doctor by her first name, no title and the kids call her Dr. First Name. Hey, it’s a small town and my doc and I are friends 🙂
Fascinating discussion! We grew up being required to address all adults with their proper title and have taught our children likewise. I don’t know if it’s really fair, even, to link the practice with “formality” so much as with respect. Words mean things and children learn the most through the most subtle, every day, repetitive habits/customs. Respect for age, respect for authority, translate into respect for what is right and, ultimately, respect for God. Or, at least, it does not encourage the opposite…
Well, wash my mouth out with soap!
I’ll try to work on this. I wasn’t raised to use the title thing, living both in CA and MN, it just wasn’t done. Except of course teachers.
Lisa said, “I don’t know if it’s really fair, even, to link the practice with “formality” so much as with respect.”
On the contrary, I think it’s important to recognize the difference between formality and respect. Formality describes behavior (adherence to a form) and respect describes an attitude. Formality is one way we can signify respect, or even pretend it, but a lack of formality doesn’t imply a lack of respect.
What we want is for our children to speak respectfully to adults, and for adults to consider our children respectful. We can help the kids by instructing them to use forms that will be recognized as “respectful” by the widest variety of adults they’re likely to come in contact with.
Hi Maggie, Margaret, FRIEND! 🙂
It is ironic that this subject was brought up, as Jamie and I were literally just talking about this very subject right before you posted!
When my family moved here to Fargo, all the children I knew from our church and the home school group called everyone Mr./Mrs. Lastname. All of a sudden I was a Mrs. Lastname. It really struck me.
I stopped a minute and thought of my own upbringing in the 70’s. I told Jamie that I NEVER would have THOUGHT of calling my friends’ parents by their first names. It just wasn’t a part of daily life! (it would have been as shocking as say… seeing your teacher OUTSIDE of the school setting! 🙂
I think using Mr./Mrs. Lastname calls on some much needed respect for authority at all levels, be it friend’s parents, police, teachers, religious.
While I dearly love all the sweet little friends of my children, I am NOT my children’s “friend” to be called by my first name. WIth the exception of nieces, nephews and Jamie’s kids. (Family!) Does that make sense without me sounding demanding and mean? I promise I’m not!!
I will introduce someone new to my children the same way as Elizabeth M. posted. “Kids, this is Mr. Lastname”. As for the elderly, some people have wanted my kids to call them “Grandpa/ma X”, and that’s OK too.
Sorry for rambling – thanks for the interesting post Margaret!
+JMJ+
Mrs. Grant (to the younger crowd! 🙂
I agree with teaching kids to use Mr/Mrs. It is a sign of respect.
However, are we teaching our children to respect someone if we insist it is more respectful to call someone by something they aren’t comfortable with?
My kids automatically default to Mr./Mrs. but if someone requested their first name be used they use it.
So far they haven’t “messed up”. In fact, it’s funny during our prayers to hear…”God Bless, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, Kristi and Rick, the Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, etc.”
I am not so adament that I think everyone should do this. But I do get annoyed when someone I know gets upset that my kids addressed someone else by their first name.
But, that’s just me.
OK, I’m going to really irk some people here, but I would like to suggest that people who “aren’t comfortable” being called by anything other than their first name by a child 1/6 their age are, perhaps, a bit uncomfortable with the idea of being an adult?
I know, it’s a scary thing. I sometimes wonder when it happened that I became the old person in the room, but there it is.
When my husband was a child, he had uncles and an aunt who were teenagers. They insisted on being addressed by their first names only. When we became parents, these same relatives (who incidentally had not become parents) tried to have our children call them by their first names as well (they were in their forties, for goodness sake). I put my foot down and said that the kids would address them as uncle/aunt. I suppose I should have been more sensitive to their feelings, but I just figured it was time for them to act like adults.
I’m going to go run and duck for cover now.
You know, I’m torn on this one. Our teachers were always Mr or Miss or Mrs. Likewise when I learned Spanish in college!
When I was in law enf training, I said Ms. or Sir a lot, or Ma’am. And in fact, when under stress in the presence of authority, I tend to fall back on that training and spit out a very polite “Sir” or “Ma’am”.
But in most of my professional life, it’s been first names, unless otherwise indicated. And personally, I HATE it when people call me “Miss” or Ms” or “Ma’am”. Because when they do, I know they want to sell me something.
Unless I’m at work; I have one nametag with my full name and no title, and another nametag with “Ms.”
After I spoke to a class this year, the children all began calling me “Mrs.” I’ve not corrected them, although I keep looking around for a ring! (Because I don’t watn to confuse the children, and I am not going to tell them to call me by my first name as I don’t want to undermine the rest of the real teachers!)
But then again, the Youth Minister who goes by her first name, introduces me by my first name, and even other adults are confused, and I’m confused about what to be called. So some kids call me “Ms” and others by my first name, and I acknowledge them all because in every case, they have been respectful and their eyes are shining…and I just can’t do anything other than smile at them!
Besides…there was a neighbor I always used to go visit and I always knew her and her husband by their first names, and other adult friends of my parents. They were always wonderful, I always respected their authority as adults…
So maybe it’s that I learned respect isn’t in the titles; I don’t respect a lot of people that I woud call by their titles.
Wow. That was long…
As my children get older I find that it is younger children who are much more likely to call adults by their first name. My older children’s friends do not blink an eye at using my last name or at the very least say “Mrs. S.” (Which I would never allow my students to do, but with the neighborhood kids, it’s fine.)
Michelle, I have a whole family of great-aunts and uncles who, out of 8 children in the family, only the older 2 were known as “Aunt” or “Uncle” to their nephews and greats. It is such a bizarre thing. But it was such a big part of the family culture that we just went with it. And on the other side of the coin, we have some non-relatives who are known as “Aunt” and “Uncle.” My husband’s family is widely spread in age, so he has first cousins whom he calls “Aunt.” I generally just address them by their first names since I’ve only known them from my adulthood.
My problem comes in when an adult older than me wants me to use first names. I was not raised to do that with people outside the family. It is very hard for me to use first names with someone old enough to be my parent or even older!
Count me in with those who use Mr/Mrs!
I remember one time, when I was rather little, that a friend of mine called my Dad by his first name, and he hit the roof! To him, that was completely disrespectful, and he told her parents so.
Needless to say, that incident made quite an impression on me.
I am not “friends” (as in peers) with a younger child, and I think it’s important that that distinction remain. When a child tries to call me by my first name, I smile sweetly and tell them that my name is Mrs. H.
Before introducing my children to someone, I ask their last name, so that I can turn to my kids and say, “So-and-so, this is Mrs. X.” If they insist on first names, then it’s Miss Firstname, but that’s only as a last resort.
Well, I have definitely learned one thing from this thread.
When a child addresses me as Mrs. Lastname., from now on I am never, ever, ever going to say to the child, “You can call me Firstname.”
I will check with the child’s parents first!
Michelle – I totally agree with you! I’ve been in that transition period from young adult to adult (for the last ten years or so) where it was ok for kids to call me by my first name, and I still felt like I should be calling my elders by Mrs. or Mr., like “barb,sfo” suggested.
Now, when my friends kids call me ‘stephanie’ I think that sounds so strange – I’m old enough to be Mrs. something…and along with that, I am getting more comfortable with calling other adults by their first name.
I’m very late to this party, but we’ve been traveling (yipee!).
Our kids (oldest 17, youngest 3) are so used to calling adults Mr. and Mrs. that once when one of the younger kids forgot my brother-in-law’s first name, she called him, “Mr. Aunt Marie”! We all still chuckle over that one. We just started the kids right out with that expectation of calling by a title, and they feel funny doing otherwise.
Someone mentioned they call their doctor by her first name – I just could NOT! Sure, I’ve known him for 18 years and he delivered my nine babies and he feels like an uncle, but he has looked down THERE too many times for me to cross the professional barrier and call him by his first name :). Maybe if he weren’t my OB/GYN…..